Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
You can follow along, if you want...

Wednesday, October 17, 2012

Logistics V

As almost everyone knows, skills in EVE are arranged into pyramids or tiers.  Most often, training two lower tier skills both to level V unlocks the next tier skill.  Nowhere is this more prevalent than in the Spaceship Command skills.  Train the lower tier skills of racial frigate and Electronics Upgrades to level V and Covert Ops are unlocked.  Train the lower tier skills of racial frigate and Evasive Maneuvering to level V and Interceptors are unlocked.  Lower tier skills of racial cruiser and Signature Analysis and Recons are unlocked.

It's not quite that simple, of course: there are usually lots of levels to the pyramids.  Recons, for instance are actually two steps up the Level V pyramid because you have to train the prerequisites for Covert Ops first.  This is something that CCP has promised to change when they get around to rebalancing the first tech 2 ships hopefully before late next year.

Still... today, train the lower tier skills of racial cruiser, Long Range Targeting, and Signature Analysis to V and Logistics are unlocked.  But to be useful, you pretty much have to train Logistics V.  Flying a Scimitar is all but impossible without it and flying a Basi or Guardian under any sort of neut pressure at all is, too.

Logistics was the very first tech 2 ship skill I trained to Level V.  I trained Logistics V before I trained HAC V, or Recon V, or any tech 2 frigate skill to level V.  It was entirely a practical choice on my part, coupled to my inclination to play support roles in PvP while I learned how to do it properly.  The practical part was that I figured logis were useful anywhere.  That didn't turn out to be completely true: in early wormhole play, logis were shunned.  But everywhere else there was usually a place for them.

At just shy of a month, it was my first truly long skill train, too.  And now for the next eighteen months or so, it's going to be all but useless.  Remember how I said that CCP could nerf single role ships and I wouldn't be too concerned because they'd still be good within those roles and the training time loss wasn't that big of a deal?

Yeah.  I might have misspoken.  Take a look at this:

[Scythe, AB Larges]
Damage Control II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II

10MN Afterburner II
Sensor Booster II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction

Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, EMP S

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Semiconductor Memory Cell I


Don't bother putting it into EFT yet.  It won't work.  This is a Retribution-era Scythe.  If things stay as they are, when Retribution drops on December 4, this ship will be flyable.  It won't tank like a Scimitar.  It won't move like a Scimitar.

But it will rep about 40% better than a Scimitar will, and it will do it at longer range: 92.4 kilometers.  With no gang links, a standard Drake receiving three Scimitar large reps can tank 818 DPS.  The same Drake receiving two Scythe reps on December 4 will tank 1141.

Let me say that again so as to be completely clear: on December 4th, two Scythes will be just as good as three Scimitars at repping a fleet, and will be able to do it from 20 kilometers further away.

The hull cost of a Scimitar is 140 million ISK and requires Logistics V to be trained to use it properly, plus two lower tier support skills also at level V.  The hull cost of a Scythe is 4.5 million ISK.  Skill needed?  Minmatar Cruiser V.

Hang out at a planet.  Wait for the fight to start.  Manually set your warp-to range to 90km.(1)  When the FC calls you in, right-click the FC on your watch list and warp in.  Lock targets at 93km+.  Start repping.  Things will head for you but ha, you're 90 kilometers away.  Light your afterburner and make a significant finger gesture in Local.  Warp off if you want, or you know what?  Don't.  That's OK too.  Your ship cost 4.5 million ISK and was insured for pennies.

Somewhere in Iceland, someone sat down and apparently thought, "Guys, you know what this game really needs?  LOL-T1 cruiser fleets with reps.  Way better reps than you can get off a T2 ship."  The beer in Iceland must have been very good this summer.

Before you ask, yeah, the Osprey is going to be very nearly as awesome.  The Exequror and Augoror are also impressive though they suffer a bit because of the lack of maneuverability of armor ships.  Still, who cares right?  Hull cost of an Auguror is 4.4 million ISK.  High-end meta reppers drop at rates undreamt of a year ago.  Large S95 Partial Shield Transporter?  400k.  Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstructor?  700k.

I take it the idea here is to make the T1 logistics cruisers "attractive alternatives" to actual Logistics ships.  I'm also completely convinced that the hidden idea is to make brand new players just as valuable in fleets as players who've been in New Eden for years.  Problem is, the Scythe is not an attractive alternative.  It's a replacement.  It turns all that time training the actual Logistics skill into wasted time and is going to put 75 million SP characters into T1 cruisers.

Why not?  Sell one Scimitar.  Replace with 30 Scythes.

This is a really good idea.

My thanks to my alliance-mate Namamai for doing much of the :scary math: for this post.  Thanks, Nam!


(1) Right-click the "Warp" button in your Selected Item dialog.  You'll be asked to set a default warp distance.  Set it to 90000.  Click "OK".  Remember to set it back to 0 when you're done.  Any time you select "Warp to" by right clicking on the Overview or a celestial, instead of warping to 0m, you'll warp to 90000m.

69 comments:

  1. Damn, this is going to be awesome. I guess the only use for Logi V will be for Carrier pilots that want triage.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. One hopes that actual Logistics ships will then be rebalanced at some point in late 2013 or early 2014. But in order to make them better than the T1 versions, they're going to have to be absurdly good.

      Delete
  2. Will you be able to lock out to 90km? My memory says 75, but I could be wrong.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You're using the Sebo to increase your lock range to the range of your reps, so yes.

      Delete
    2. Missed that, its still early, let me blame that.

      Delete
  3. Interesting. As someone who trained Logi 5 over a year ago, I'd like to see the math. If EFT can't be used to evaluate your fit, then the math needs explanation. You'd get trolled off battleclinic with a fit like this and no math to back it up.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?15004-EFT-data-files-for-Retribution

      Updated attributes with what is announced so far.

      But i think Jester took it a little wrong because the rep isn't 40% stronger than with Scimitar. It's just 16,7% compaired directly (1152 to 1344). He should differentiate between the logi's boost and what the boosted ship is able to tank.

      Nevertheless, CCP should rework this. But i think it's easy made: The Scythe got too much CPU (Medium Shield Transfer fitted the Scythe only needs 395 of available 518 CPU). They just have to take 100 or 110 CPU away and there is no possibility of fitting 2 Large Shield Transfers. Easy made and with Mediums still a fine and well balanced ship in my opinion.

      Delete
  4. Well, a few months back you were talking about nerfing Tech - there you have it. Ships built with Tech will be useless for about a year which gives CCP time to work out a proper Tech nerf.

    ReplyDelete
  5. This is all part of CCP's so-called "rebalancing".

    What a joke.

    It is nothing more than an attempt to lower the skill req bar, so that new players migrating over from Dust can get into better/bigger PVP ships faster, and thus stay around and feed CCP's sub revenue.

    CCP doesn't really give a damn about 75M SP players. There are fewer of them than there will be of <1M SP Dust players, within the first month of the Dust launch. Besides, according to CCP, the 75M SP players aren't losing *anything* 'cause they can fly the T1 ships, as well.

    And, so what if a few older players rage quit? Gain a hundred or more new players from Dust for each old Eve player lost? It's just good business.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Actually none of us, even those over or near 75m skill points give a damn about 75m SP players. The game would be more fun with a couple of hundred of them rage quitting and a couple of thousand newbies having fun in T1 cruisers.

      Delete
    2. If it puts an end to your sperge, I support it.

      Delete
  6. As you've said, that ship does not handle like a Scimitar (no MWD) and it does not tank like a Scimitar (no T2 resistances). In anything but a small gang, that ship will be blown out of the sky on special priority, same as a Blackbird would be, if it gets within hostile range. And without an MWD, fast tackle or bonused heavy tackle will catch that ship, pin it down, and take it apart unless it warps off. A ship that's not on grid and cannot get on grid because of bubbles, is not useful.

    In short, despite the extra remote repair power, it's not a Scimitar. It won't replace a Scimitar. For the same reason that alliances now tend toward AHACs and tech-3 ships: most PvP alliances are limited in what they can do by manpower, not by ISK.

    It is perhaps a bit overpowered, but I trust CCP to tone it down if that becomes a problem. I don't think it's so overpowered that it will eclipse T2 logistics. And it will make T1 cruiser and battlecruiser gangs much more viable, since they'll supported by T1 rather than the much more expensive T2 logistics.

    Full disclosure: I have Logistics V and don't really use anything besides logistics in fleets.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Would you like to see the version that goes faster than a Scimitar on MWD, is completely cap-stable, and only has 6km less range while repping only 18 DPS less than a Scimi?

      Delete
    2. "It won't replace a Scimitar. ... most PvP alliances are limited in what they can do by manpower, not by ISK."

      This is *exactly* why the T1 logis will almost completely replace the T2 logis.

      There are going to be a lot more people who can fly T1 logis, since they don't require Racial Cruiser V, Long Range Targeting V, Signature Analysis V and Logistics V.

      As RK found out recently, you can't beat a gang with 4 Guardians. So, what the hell are you going to do when you come up against a gang supported by 8 Augorors?

      Delete
    3. I actually don't think there's a huge problem with a small difference between a 3 medium rep scythe and a 3 large rep scimi - gets people to stop using guns or whatever like an imbecile, and use a medium rep or (hint: t2 acr, improved mindflood) 4th large rep. 4 large rep scimi is still significantly better than 3 medium rep retribution scythe for small gang work, similar to the zealot vs the new omen. Suggest they change the bonuses on the new support cruisers to only go for medium reps. Could scimi use a little bit of help fitting large reps and tank? Maybe, but not a huge deal vis a vis the scythe assuming they fix the large rep issue.

      Delete
    4. yes please. and theory crafted other T1-logi boats as well.
      (not the same anon, just curious)

      Delete
  7. Yeah, it's going to make intercepter pilots that can get a warp in or make the hero rush all that more popular

    ReplyDelete
  8. Second thought. I think that CCP is intentionally narrowing the gap between T1 and T2 ships, which is definitely a good thing. It will be interesting if CCP also reduces the build cost of T2 ships when they redo T2 production chains.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Holy fu@# !@#!@#!!!! I JUST finished Logi V (along with V on all the other remote rep and transfer skills).

    Yes, I do feel like I wasted my time. :( Particularly because I'm in no way a Minmatar pilot, since I have zero projectile weapon skills. So for me training for Logistics involved the long Logi V training and the long Minmatar Cruiser V training to get into the Scimi.

    This are the times one can't help but think "WTF CCP?!".

    ReplyDelete
  10. Forgive me if I'm missing something, but the new Scythe only has 330 Powergrid. Even with the powergrid rigs, it surely cannot fit two large shield RR?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The Retri-era Scythe gets a buff to fitting RRs.

      Delete
    2. I don't think it does. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=152826 shows no bonus

      Delete
    3. I am pretty sure it does not... In fact this is way over on power grid unless you start stacking RCUs, which would kill cap stability. Here is a nice quote straight from the forum post about support cruisers:

      Scythe:
      Cruiser skill bonuses:
      15% bonus to Shield Transporter boost amount
      5% reduction in Shield Transporter cap use
      Role Bonus:
      1000% bonus to the range of Shield Transporters
      100% bonus to Logistic Drone (both armor and shield) rep amount
      Slot layout: 3 H (-2), 5 M (+2), 5 L (+2), 2 turrets (-1), 1 launcher (-1)
      Fittings: 330 PWG (-95), 415 CPU (+190)
      Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1400(+424) / 1100(+124) / 1300(+324)
      Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1250(+468.75) / 240s(-38.75s) / 5.2 (+2.4)
      Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 250(+47) / 0.6(+0.095) / 11110000 / 6.2s (+0.9)
      Drones (bandwidth / bay): 45 (+40) / 45 (+40)
      Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 52.5km(+15) / 400(+55) / 8(+2)
      Sensor strength: 13 Ladar (+2)
      Signature radius: 75 (-25)
      Cargo capacity: 475 (+35)

      Yep, not were does it say a reduce cost to PG like you say it does... So that means that the ship will only be able to fit medium reps like CCP wants, which is why it has the rep amount bonus to make the medium actually worth something unlike they are now.. So all this complex maths, where was it done?

      Delete
    4. I checked the dev post about the ship rebalance, and the cruisers do not get fitting bonus to remote reps;

      Scythe:
      Cruiser skill bonuses:
      15% bonus to Shield Transporter boost amount
      5% reduction in Shield Transporter cap use
      Role Bonus:
      1000% bonus to the range of Shield Transporters
      100% bonus to Logistic Drone (both armor and shield) rep amount
      Slot layout: 3 H (-2), 5 M (+2), 5 L (+2), 2 turrets (-1), 1 launcher (-1)
      Fittings: 330 PWG (-95), 415 CPU (+190)
      Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1400(+424) / 1100(+124) / 1300(+324)
      Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1250(+468.75) / 240s(-38.75s) / 5.2 (+2.4)
      Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 250(+47) / 0.6(+0.095) / 11110000 / 6.2s (+0.9)
      Drones (bandwidth / bay): 45 (+40) / 45 (+40)
      Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 52.5km(+15) / 400(+55) / 8(+2)
      Sensor strength: 13 Ladar (+2)
      Signature radius: 75 (-25)
      Cargo capacity: 475 (+35)

      Delete
    5. There is no fitting buff for RRs, but there is a little-known skill called Engineering that increases Scythe PG from 330 to 412.5, more than enough for two large meta4 reps.

      Delete
    6. Mind linking where you see they get a buff to fitting RR? I don't see it in the F&I thread.

      -Kethry Avenger

      Delete
    7. Yeah, duh, should have double checked before I commented. It's just the Ancillaries and good skills that boost the grid.

      Delete
  11. Ouch, I was just about to start training up logistics. so yeah this about as well balanced as a loaded die.

    I do have one question though, if this is considered appropriate in terms of how much damage can be shrugged off, then is this just a goof up or could there be something in the pipes that makes those numbers necessary?

    ReplyDelete
  12. Suddenly I feel a lot better about a hard choice I had to make in my own alliance. The boss has a fleet doctrine he wants to run with, which needs two things: a near-clone of your skirmish Tempest, and Scimitars.

    Doctrine launch time: one month. Time for me to hit Minmatar Cruiser V and Logi IV, and fit T2 shield and cap transporters: 42 days. Add 21 days for Logi V.

    Sounds like maybe I should just train Minmatar Cruiser V and wait for December, huh?

    (As an aside, if you were having powergrid issues with that skirmish Tempest, and had to choose between stepping down either the guns or the cap booster to meta level to make it all fit, which would you keep at T2? Booster for the neuts, or guns for the DPS?)

    ReplyDelete
  13. Surely this will get nerfed when someone at CCP reads this - making T1 90% as good as T2 i can understand (to some extent).

    Making it 20% better than T2 i less about good beer and more about good drugs or ineffective phycotherapy! :D

    ReplyDelete
  14. I remember CCP saying they would ajust tech2 ships when playing with tech1, but dunno if they really will do it in time... for example oustide logi, there's covert ops who'll need a bonus to mini professions modules as the tech1 version will get one with retri.

    ReplyDelete
  15. personaly iam not 100% sure what to think about those t1 logis.
    but you should think about what happens with your 40% more reps if your logis die much faster.
    i mean ok for test alliance this will be great, they are good in bringing replacements to an ongoing battle.
    but entities who dont fight their fights with endless numbers cant replace a hard to kill logistic with a 40% more reps logistic.
    what happens to your loki fleet or tengu fleet if the logis are slow paperships?
    logistics are the weekpoint in most highendfleets. most concern about logi fittings is about survivability.

    i mean you cant do an navy apoc fleet with ships that cost a bn isk with paper logistics.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Can we also assume since all the frigs that were buffed had their cost to produced increased, these cruisers will also cost more?

    ReplyDelete
  17. You can get the Retribution data files for EFT here:

    https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=162617&find=unread

    ReplyDelete
  18. 3x Medium looks equally hilarious. 5% less range and repping power than a Scimi, but 43K+ EHP with very reasonable resists. That's without links. And I could, you know, dive into the dumpster with the bazillion deadspace reppers inside. :)

    ReplyDelete
  19. Hello Jester,

    Osprey:
    Cruiser skill bonuses:
    15% bonus to Shield Transporter boost amount
    5% reduction in Shield Transporter cap use
    Role Bonus:
    1000% bonus to the range of Shield Transporters and Energy Transfers
    200% bonus to Energy Transfer Array transfer amount
    Slot layout: 5 H (+1), 5 M (+1), 3 L, 1 turret (-2), 2 launchers
    Fittings: 425 PWG (-50), 440 CPU (+165)
    Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1650(+477) / 1000(+24) / 1450(+356)
    Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1375(+531.25) / 275s(-26.25s) / 5 (+2.2)
    Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 200(+47) / 0.59(+0.085) / 11230000 / 6.2s (+0.9)
    Drones (bandwidth / bay): 20 / 20
    Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 65km(+12.5) / 350(+39) / 8(+3)
    Sensor strength: 16 Gravimetric (+2)
    Signature radius: 95 (-30)
    Cargo capacity: 485


    Thats from https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=152826&find=unread

    There is no provision for the grid bonus which is applied to the tech2. So, unless you are fitting reactors and current rigs. I believe you will be restricted to medium RR which these ships can currently fit.

    Fozzie also notes in his opening post: "Just like the Logi frigate balance pass we're hitting the modules at the same time, reducing some fitting requirements on medium remote reps significantly" Which is a decent indicator these tech1 are only medium.

    "The downside for their cheapness and low skill requirements will mainly be rep amount (at most 2/3 of a T2 Logi), sig radius, sensor strength and ehp/resists."

    Plus this. As far I see, medium reps.

    As an Oneiros pilot I read Fozzie's post very carefully, with a similar thought to reverting to disposible Exequrer. Note the large drone bay in exchange for one less high slot. Win some, loss some.

    MT

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You can do large reps with the new Osprey, but you do need fitting mods. Still (For patched EFT only):

      [Osprey, Osprey Retr]
      Internal Force Field Array I
      Beta Reactor Control: Diagnostic System I
      Beta Reactor Control: Diagnostic System I

      Large Shield Extender II
      Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
      Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
      Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
      10MN Afterburner II

      Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
      Large Shield Transporter II
      Medium 'Regard' Power Projector
      Medium 'Regard' Power Projector
      Auto Targeting System I

      Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
      Medium Ancillary Current Router I
      Medium Ancillary Current Router I

      For a first draft this looks promising. 90K range for the reps, 66K for the cap chain.

      Delete
  20. This is exactly what happened to the mining barges. They raised the relative performance of the T1 version to something soo close to the T2 version that it isn't worth the cost increase anymore. The risk is to great compared to just tossing away the cheaper hull.

    ie: Why would I fly a mackinaw at 250mil (and get maybe 9-12% increase in harvesting) when I can fly a covetor at 25mil and not worry about losing it?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Retriever, you do mean Retriever, don't you? Other than that, yup, you are right.

      Delete
  21. It appears CCP is updating T1 ships before T2s... If you haven't noticed almost all the T1s (changing in the December patch) are in some way better then their T2 versions right now.

    Then again, the T2s might be receiving upgrades not announced yet.

    ReplyDelete
  22. I'm sorry, but the AB fit of my Scimi has FOUR large reppers. The MWD fit has 3. How the hell will this Scythe rep 40% more?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. An AB Scimitar isn't very survivable, particularly once you can't just jump through the closest gate when you get primaried.

      You don't CARE if an AB Scythe is survivable, but even so it is because it can stay 92km away. But even if you lose it, psh, 5 million ISK.

      Delete
    2. The reason is that the Scimitar doesn't actually get a bonus to rep amount, only to range and cap use. The Scythe does - 15% per level, or a 75% bonus at level 5.

      Delete
    3. I think you are simplifying this a bit too much jester.

      YOU might not care if you lose your 5M isk Scythe, but your gangmates will. In fact they will probably be saying things like "fly a bloody scimi you scrub".

      A scimi can stay with the gang in a roam where a Scythe cant.
      A scimi can jump through and fight on the other side with the gang, where a scythe is 92km away now and cant. Even if it did, it is now fodder because it is not at range.
      A scimi can keep another scimi alive under fire. A scythe cant keep another Scythe up under fire, it wont have the resists.

      The only time being able to stay 92km away from the fleet is convenient is with a gatecamp. Otherwise you will be messing about in warp more than repping your gang. Assuming you dont get tackled and killed before that.
      A scimi is useful against a comp that can shoot at range. Your scythe just isnt.

      A scimi is still a much better choice to be paired with a high end gang because of it's survivability.

      DISCLAIMER:
      I have logi V, can fly scimi, gaurdian and oneiros.
      I like the changes.

      Delete
    4. Gevlon - Scythe has 15% rep bonus for each cruiser level (75% in total). Scimitar has no rep bonus.

      Delete
    5. Cruiser skill bonuses:
      15% bonus to Shield Transporter boost amount

      pretty much just this
      scimitar has bonusses to range, cap usage and tracking link range/effect but not to shield amount

      bit of an oversight
      untill they get a rework they are going to be a very specialized ship for fleets with lots of big guns at best

      this bonus needs changing or it needs to be added to the scimitar (which would just be imbalanced)

      Delete
    6. Point here is that you can put far more people into a Scythe than a Scimitar since the skill requirements are so much lower.

      You might only have two or thee people in a small alliance that can reliably fly Scimitars and feel comfortable losing them if they screw up. But a T1 cruiser? Every person in your alliance has that skill and they probably aren't gonna care if they lose the ship.

      Rote logi pilots are buying Scythes by the score right now... but so are a lot of people who traditionally have never flown logi.

      Delete
  23. Good point jester but it is not shipped yet. Shouldn't be too hard for ccp fozzie to prevent that kind of fittings or limiting the role bonus to medium reps.

    But you could be a friendly eve-o forums user and point that math out. some devs might read your blog but it still would be helpful to post it there.

    ReplyDelete
  24. http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Shiptech_1920.jpg

    Apart from CCP not having re-balanced Tech 2 (let alone Navy, Pirate and Tech 3 ships), we can probably assume the following from the linked image:
    - Tech 2 ships will be worse than Tech 1 in some aspect, but significantly better in another. Instead of an all round improvement, Tech 2 ships will be for specializing in a particular role.
    - Navy and Pirate ships are direct improvements on Tech 1.
    - Tech 3 are only as effective as Tech 1, but can cover multiple roles in one ship.

    If we approach it from that angle, the Scimitar should be better than the Scythe in one role, but worse in another. But what are the roles that the Scythe can cover beyond RR Logistics as it stands? Are there even any sub-roles within Logistics? Tracking computers and Remote Sebo I guess?

    I'd argue that the Scimitar and Scythe need their roles reversed. That makes the Scimitar a superior Logistics ship (for reps and survivability), but makes the Scythe able to pick between Reps, Tracking links, or a mix of both.
    Because that's what Tech 1 is supposed to be about: Multiple sub-roles to choose between.

    Does that make any sense?

    ReplyDelete
  25. @jester, Re: "An AB Scimitar isn't very survivable, particularly once you can't just jump through the closest gate when you get primaried.

    You don't CARE if an AB Scythe is survivable, but even so it is because it can stay 92km away. But even if you lose it, psh, 5 million ISK."

    You care very much if your logistics team can survive under hostile fire, because a dead logistics is of no use at all. It has a repping power of 0. I ran the numbers using the Retribution EFT data, and if you compare MWD T2 logistics to MWD T1 support cruisers, the difference is still significant, in repping power and in survivability. Logistics will no longer be the only remote repair ships available, but they're still going to be substantially better. Whether that will justify their cost in all situations is a different matter, but I'm quite certain we all know which class of ships fleet commanders will prefer.

    For example, MWD Scimitar with 3.5 large reppers (unless you're shit-fitting it with a comedy gun for km whoring) reps for 1254 base HP per cycle (250HP/s), and self-reps for 1250dps. MWD Scythe with three medium reppers (1.5 large reppers), even at Minmatar Cruiser V, reps for 1008 base HP per cycle (201dps/s), and self-reps for 692dps. That's 20% less repping power, and 45% less survivability when it comes under fire, ignoring reduced EHP.

    You _can_ fit large reps onto the new support cruisers, but there's no point in doing so if it gets you killed.

    ReplyDelete
  26. i suggest everyone to just download EFT retribution files to test things out

    http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?8303-EFT-data-files-for-Retribution

    ReplyDelete
  27. took me a while to realize it was a scythe you were talking about. a what? LOL. 92 klicks? fuck ya!

    course, what will incursion fleets use? betcha it'll be proper logistics ships though, eh?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Incursion fleets will probably still have to use the good stuff. Scythes aren't going to have enough buffer for incursions, I don't think.

      Delete
  28. Putting two Jester posts together here.

    CCP makes an uber cheap and effective logi ship.
    CCP changes the flagging system to make remote reppers vulnerable in high sec.

    Not many people are going to throw away 90mil on a high sec remote repping Scimi that's just going to get raped but 5mil and the bastards have to reach 90km to hit me? Yeah I'd do that.

    It's the Icelandic version of Newton's law of motion. For every major nerf there is a subtle and not very well advertised buff.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Jester, Elise Randolph pulled out the duchebag card again in the Eve forum/feature and ideas/support cruisers saying your blog entry was just for blog views and he all but guarantees he will get Fozzie to force T1 support cruisers to only be able to use medium reppers.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. If only I had a dime for every time someone accused me of writing something for no reason other than blog hits.

      Amusing that he apparently AGREES with my publicity-seeking post, though. Not that he could just SAY that and go on with his life.

      Delete
    2. Just to clarify my stance: I disagree completely that T1 logistics cruisers will replace (or be otherwise better than) T2, even if there are no changes. Also the armor platforms require 4 fitting mods to shoe-horn two large reps on, which sufficiently cripples the setup to the point where it's not viable. The notion that the balance team wants to make T1 better than T2 is quite far off base and very hyperbolic, which is what I was trying to bring out in my post. I do agree that fitting oversized remote reps should be less trivial, but I think that option should still remain open - kind of like a heavy neut Curse.

      The point of these changes is to make it so newer players have a role beyond "train for a Drake, see you in 2 months until then enjoy this Rifter". Right now there is no real path someone can take to see what they like beyond jumping in with both feet and waiting a month (or more). The key here is that the introduction to these roles should be viable, but specialization should always be better.

      I do give you credit for pointing out a really neat flaw in the design of the Scythe/Osprey, there are several border-line fits that you can do with the initial stats of the new ships that I actively encourage people to look for. Specifically the logi frigates, the ewar frigates (Griffin and Crucifier specifically), and the new destroyers (Amarr specifically). Hopefully this publicity will get people trying to break all of the new things. While I take pride in my ability to completely break ships in unintended ways, more eyes are always better.

      Finally if you took the suggestion that the blog sensationalized the idea for blog views as a sleight I apologize. There is nothing wrong with posting for publicity, by the way. I infrequently read your blog, but whenever there's a high-profile sort of post I wander over and spend the better part of my day reading the entries and comments. Branching out to more areas of the game than I am otherwise involved in is not only my duty, but I get immense joy from it as well. Tangents aside, when I made the comment I honestly didn't think you earnestly believed CCP were trying to make T1 way better than T2 and that Logi V would be a useless skill. If I can convey one thing, that idea is very far from reality.

      Delete
    3. Hi Elise,

      I get what you're saying. But the issue is that the Medium rep Scythe is nearly as good as the Large rep Scythe (particularly since you can easily MWD it). The only thing you lose off a Scimi is a few percentage points (since the Scythe can easily fit all T2 Mediums) of repping power and a few kilometers of range.

      If the only thing you're buying with a Scimitar for literally 30 times more ISK is a better tank and a few percentage points better performance, it's hard to believe that a lot of people won't go ahead and take the hit, dock their pod when they get blown up, and return to the fight in a second (and third, and fourth) Scythe. PL won't do this and Rote won't do this, but unless I'm mistaken, FW corps and RvB and Goonswarm and TEST will do it in numbers that completely dwarf the activity of our respective alliances.

      If the Scimi were clearly worth the price difference, then I wouldn't have anything to say about this. And I truly believe long-term that it will... in late 2013 or early 2014 when the rebalance wave starts hitting the T2 cruisers at its current speed. But in the meantime...

      Being accused of writing stuff to stir up trouble and generate hits amuses me because I don't advertise and I don't benefit in any real way from hits. As I keep saying again and again, the chances that I'll run for CSM are pretty much nil. I write stuff because that's what I think, and sometimes people agree with me.

      Thanks for commenting!

      Delete
    4. IRL people will often pay 2x-10x the price for goods that have 1%-2% better performance. 30x the price for a good that has 6% better rep is reasonable.

      Delete
  30. http://imgur.com/VFbFO if you want to see what it looks like on EFT

    ReplyDelete
  31. Deep breaths. :)

    Fozzie's already on it: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2063146#post2063146

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

      Delete
  32. I did most of the math that led up to this post -- and the EFT files that several of the people here have linked to :) Glad to see that people find it interesting/useful.

    Since a few people have asked what an "intended" Scythe would look like, here's one:

    ---
    [NewScythe, Triple Medium]
    Damage Control II
    Capacitor Power Relay II
    Capacitor Power Relay II
    Capacitor Power Relay II
    Power Diagnostic System II

    Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
    Conjunctive Ladar ECCM Scanning Array I
    Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
    Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
    Large Shield Extender II

    Medium Shield Transporter II
    Medium Shield Transporter II
    Medium Shield Transporter II

    Medium Semiconductor Memory Cell I
    Medium Semiconductor Memory Cell I
    Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
    ---

    If you compare this to the standard three-large-rep MWD scimi used in most small gang lowsec/nullsec fights, here's how it measures up (all-V skills):

    * 97% of the Scimi's repping ability (216 HP/sec versus 230 HP/sec)
    * 5km less range on the rep (66km versus 71km)
    * 70% of the Scimi's HP (25k versus 31k EHP) -- but both are still firmly in "gets alphaed by a few Tornados" range
    * Slightly faster while using the MWD (2131 m/s versus 2051 m/s)
    * Better cap stability
    * Over 100M isk cheaper

    If you drop the PDS for a nanofiber (requires downgrading the LSE and one transfer to meta-4) then it kicks the shit out of the Scimitar on mobility, and has similar cap stability.

    For what it's worth, I actually think the new Scythe is AWESOME. I really love seeing a progression path in the game for logistics-minded players. I just hope that the Scimitar remains noticably more useful than the new Scythe, so that players continue to have reason to train for Logistics. I have similar, but not as urgent, concerns about the Exequror and Onerios.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Just to confirm: Namamai is responsible for the Scythe fitting in this post and most of the math. I added four shakes of hysteria and two shakes of market math. ;-)

      Delete
  33. The real issue isn't how much better or worse the T1 logi will be over the T2 counterpart. The issue is how many more people will now be able to be able to fly effective logi ships in gangs and fleets, due to the much lower SP requirements of the T1 logis.

    As Jester pointed out above, only a few pilots in a typical corp can fly T2 logis effectively. This is both an SP issue, and an ISK issue. Damn near everyone in the game can fly and afford a T1 cruiser.

    This means that we'll be seeing a lot more RR. Instead of bringing 1 logi per N DPS ships, we can now bring N logis per every 1 DPS ship. Flip the math this way and you don't get balance, you get boring.

    ReplyDelete
  34. So logistics will no longer cost a shitload of money. It will actually MAKE SENSE to hop into logistics ships. That's bad, yeah /sarcasm

    ReplyDelete
  35. Im guessing the CPU on the Tec1 versions will be nerfed after launch.
    im guessing Tec2 ships will be rebalanced after Tec1 is releases so no worries Scimatar will become either a better priest or more survivable or add more utility to it.


    my guesses are CCP is aiming at what they did with the mining ships
    Tec2 with max skills is 10% increase over Tec1 for its given role

    that means we will see alot more ships of Tec1 type destroyed and the Tec2 market will be "worriedsome" i wouldn't spend my hard earned isk on a new Ship T2 BPO at this stage atleast and i pitty the owners of the T2 Ship BPO.

    ReplyDelete
  36. As of 12/29, 2x Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter cannot fit... unless perhaps with a powergrid implant, but still doubtful. Namamai's [NewScythe, Triple Medium] reaches to 60km, or you could go with 1 large to 95k and 2 mediums.

    ReplyDelete

Note: Only a member of this blog may post a comment.